Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

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Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Rosmy Sundr on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:43 am

Ok, so zombie hordes are horrifying, but as far as 1960's zombie movies were concerned, as long as you weren't the sort of idiot to let a zombie corner you, you could survive well enough just by outrunning, or even briskly out walking the shuffling masses. 90's zombies however changed the game with crazy speed to match their fearsome strength, evolving from horror-suspense to horror-thriller.

While mobs can quickly become scarey in fallout (especially with ammo scarcity), unarmed ghouls are such slow critters, you could easily run away in real time combat, removing a lot of the actual fear factor; if things get to hairy, you could always run a screen or two away, patch yourself up, and reload while they slowly approach trying to get within melee range.

While a running breed of zombie could address this, lets be honest; a charging ghoul looks funny, not scarey.

I would like to propose an alternative to the modern alternative zombie troop of "chargers": prevent the character from fleeing too easily. Players should still have the ability to run, but not always, and not clear across the map. One possible implementation would be to make running cost 1 AP per second, forcing you to sprint in bursts, but then result to walking or stopping to wait for AP to refill. Another possibility would be temporary conditions such as "Winded" or "Tired"; the former preventing you from running after "running" past a certain cool-down limit, the later perhaps reducing your AP regeneration rate if you've run too much over the course of a day, or are coming down off strong steroids. Both of these could then be further modified by carrying weight, or the ratio of current to maximum carrying weight.


Thoughts? Comments? Profound philosophical disagreements?
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Izual on Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:43 am

Zombies will be able to run, mostly by forcing their animation to play faster. To make it look better it's possible to remove or add frames in their .frm
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Warder on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:40 pm

I am totally against AP cost for running - because it will become after some time really annoying (for me at least).
Second idea based on timeouts is more appealing, it will not constrain player too much. With carryweight applied such ingame mechanics are really tasty :smile:
Zombies will be able to run, mostly by forcing their animation to play faster. To make it look better it's possible to remove or add frames in their .frm
Well, i hope Isual didnt mean "No." to whole concept :confused:
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Rosmy Sundr on Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:18 am

perhaps Its because I cant get yakety sax* out of my head, but the thought of ghouls fast-forward shuffling at me has me lolling uncontrollably. Perhaps they'll manage to keep us from out-running them via excessive rofl'ing


*http://io9.com/5573794/the-top-5-scifi-and-horror-benny-hill-mash+ups
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Izual on Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:30 pm

Running zombies are not so funny imo :|

.

Also they are not funny if they can kill you really fast :mrgreen:

Anyway. I kinda like the stuff about running one second costs 1 AP (It's a bit too fast though, I'd prefer less penalties, f.e. running 3 seconds costs 1 AP). It'd be interesting to try that out, yeap :smile: What I also like is that it would enlarge the map, I mean you wouldn't run from one side to the other so easily, so fast. And when the path leading to the other side might be full of ambushed zombies, it's even scarier :cool:
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Rosmy Sundr on Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:53 am

maybe if their were some way to temporarily extend the distance you could run per AP, like popping a buffout steroid, or an inhaler (modified Jet graphic). the more I think about it, the more obnoxious it would be, imagine having to wait a few seconds after shooting just for your AP to refill so you could run.

I can just see someone running a grid over the map, agro'ing all the non-ranged ghouls, while players fulfilled all non-combat mission objectives, and then taking turns picking off zombies as the mob tries to keep up with the runner
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Warder on Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:19 pm

I take my words back, running cost has some valid point, if it doesnt turn game into shuttle run. Running must have some connection with AP. If you run some distance and exhaust yourself, you wont be able to do much actions.
Id like to expand Rosmy`s idea in this way:

1. Player always loses one action point while running every X seconds.
Example: X = 7. There is a variable, which stores cumulative amount of passed milliseconds while players was running. As soon as it goes beyond limit, it subtracts 7 000 milliseconds from variable and drains 1 AP.

2. Player needs Y action points to run for X seconds.
Example: Y = 1, X = 6. You use 1 AP to just start running, after 6 seconds you ll need 1 AP more to continue. If you stop sooner, you ll lose it anyway. If you dont have 1 AP you walk.

3. Each character has some Z variable which stores fatigue value. Fatigue is constantly dropping while player stays. Various actions raise fatigue by different amount (depends on character attributes, f.e. encumbrance, %HP).

4. When Z goes above some value, it activates next tiredness state. In other words, there is a set of X,Y values for each fatigue level (AP cost to run, AP loss interval, maybe chance-to-hit penalty, etc).
Example: in normal state you got AP running cost 1, loss interval is 12, chance to hit penalty is 0. But if you are drop-dead-tired, you have these values set to, lets say, 1, 3, -30.

5. These XY values are derived from character stats and can also be modified by perks or consumables.

Well... what do you think?
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Izual on Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:38 pm

Well I'll try to answer on everything ;)

Rosmy: are you taking back your idea then? (When you say "the more I think about it, the more obnoxious it would be, imagine having to wait a few seconds after shooting just for your AP to refill so you could run."). I think it's a quite good idea and it has to make it in the game. Another good thing with that is that it'll reduce the possibilities of playing with the AI of the mobs.

However (and to answer to Warder too) it doesn't have to be much complicated (I don't want to have a fatigue bar or anyhing) or a real penalty. I think the "remove 1 AP after X hex ran across" it the way to go and we should definitely implement it. Not too much though, you should be able to run for ten seconds without having all your APs removed.

I like the idea to tie it to perks or skills much, but we have to be cautious here, as I'm sure nobody wants to see a "runner" character class, able to run forever but unable to do anything else. Some "drugs" as Warder said could provide some bonus to running ability too, but we have to be cautious in the same way. I hate the drug system of Fallout 1/2, and it has to be redone if we ever implement "drugs" (consumables giving a bonus).
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Rosmy Sundr on Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:26 pm

I still stand by the idea of running limitations, but acknowledge that my proposed direct AP drain could quicky become frustrating to the point of RAGE-quit. That said I agree that a fatigue bar would be too much (who has time to be scared when there are numbers to micromanage). I like the idea of linking it to hexes traveled, rather than time, maybe based on EN and AG... Probably easier on the server as well.

I have one more alternative to propose though, inspired by what would happen to any normal person trying to run away from zombies full sprint in that clip you posted:

Have a roll for every few hexes run (not sure how process heavy this would be), that increases in difficulty with each step, unless given time to cool down. Rather than a fatigue system, this would be more of a panic/F-up system. Based on LK, AG and PE; failing the roll triggers some sort of critical fail event, like you accidentally drop your weapon while running, or trip and fall, or perhaps even turn your ankle running and now have a crip'd leg. It would need to be disabled or nerfed out of combat, and the odds of failing for just running a few steps should be very low, but this way you can prevent decoy/runner accounts.... Although it may just spur the creation of a "bait" class -_-,

EDIT: to clarify, short distances like across a room or even across a block should probably be pretty safe, A player shouldn't have to live in constant fear of faceplanting himself, but trying to sprint a marathon will eventually land you in a heap. When people are really honestly running for their life in blind panic (eg see any video of tsunami victims) they sadly tend to trip-up and fall over any long distances.


Last edited by Rosmy Sundr on Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:39 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Clarification)
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Warder on Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:52 pm

Fatigue bar
Why you both think about some (oblivionish, as i suspect) bar in first place? No relation. :grin: This parameter meant to be hidden from player.
Numbers to micromanage
Player doesnt have to bother to remember all numbers and modifiers. Only thing he needs to know - that it is obviously bad idea to cut into the middle of the map while he barely stands on feet. Red label saying like "Too tired" should work like "broken arm" or "blinded".
"remove 1 AP after X hex ran across"
Yes, that sounds much more reasonable than timers and seconds-counters.
it doesn't have to be much complicated
My goal was to maximize application of weariness effect and to emphasize on realism. Because of that it became little bit bulky, thats true. It also doesnt offer much usefulness for horror-game if implemented my way.
Nobody wants to see a "runner" character class
I think in this case it gonna work even worse - it might become must-have-for-everybody perk.

proposed direct AP drain could quickly become frustrating to the point of RAGE-quit
If you dont make it work like 1 AP per 1 hex, it will not. Amount of discomfort inflicted by these limitations is personal. After playing with numbers, testing, testing and testing it is possible to make it acceptable for majority of players... i hope.

Regarding proposed panic system: i dont think it gonna scare player, more likely to make him angry. Imagine 99 level character running 100 meters towards zombie hordes and suddenly crippling his leg. Imo you can never say when ingame char must panic and fail.

We just need more opinions...
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Izual on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:28 am

Yup, bring more opinions! :grin:

Rosmy: About that new idea, well, it's a bit too much I think. Removing X AP for Y hex travelled should be enough. Plus, running will be a huge part of the game, not just a thing used from times to times when there's a zombie appearing nearby. You will run all the time, so imagine falling every minute because of some dice roll... Meh, that wouldn't be too great.

Warden:
I think in this case it gonna work even worse - it might become must-have-for-everybody perk.
Then no perk, and problem is solved! :mrgreen: Though as a skill ("Running" could replace "Gambling", just an idea) it might be more interesting.

Why you both think about some (oblivionish, as i suspect) bar in first place? No relation. :grin: This parameter meant to be hidden from player.
You busted the Skyrim player in me. I feel ashamed :sad: BUT! Even invisible and based on calculation rather than on a depleting "Stamina" number, it'd remain what I call a (invisible) fatigue bar.
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Amarok on Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:27 pm

Well, at first the major thing that will block player to run accross the map will be zombies themself and lack of ammo. But I agree with the need for another structural blocker.

- Hexa based limit is the best way as it deals with every player knows. Time limit would be easier to implement, but less "ingame feeling" for player.
- If SPECIAL or skill can occur in the limit, it should be margin only to keep the balance and avoid RunnerBuild (I prefer avoid the skill way).
- The idea of failing while running is pretty fine for me ^^
Maybe can it be use as a "limit marker" when player runs too long after a first alert (type msgBox ?)
Here, a skill can maybe impact on the limit marker. Failing on ground or just the run disable.
- Having a complex system (hidden stamina bar) is not in the Fallout spirit for me. Too much RealTime oriented. But if it would be the case, it will maybe cost too much ressources (trigger) for a minimal outcome in gameplay.

I see that more as limit than a real gameplay part.
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Re: Winded/Tired/Other limitations on running

Post  Rosmy Sundr on Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:21 pm

I love it!
Strike 1: "All this running is beginning to wear on you..."
Strike 2: "Watch you step! You almost turned your ankle!!!"
Strike 3: Fall and/or disable running "Congratulation! Perk Unlocked: Sacrificial Decoy - Your team won't need to run faster than the zombies, just faster than you."
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